My family and I have had the privilege of hanging out with some unbelievably awesome single guys lately. A big reason I say they are so awesome is that they actually care about winning the battle with lust. Most men gave up long ago. Titus talks about Cretans whose “god is their belly.” In our culture, deity seems to have migrated several inches south.
But these guys have a problem, and it’s a problem that we have to own as their sisters in Christ. Everywhere they go, women are unbelievably unhelpful. Flaunting. Revealing. Immodest. Out in the world, we wouldn’t really expect anything else, but when it’s women in the Church, that’s a different story. Over and over, our friends have lamented that Christian women just don’t seem to understand what they’re doing to their brothers. I think that’s because no one is out there trying to teach them. And guess what, ladies, that’s OUR job. The Bible says that it’s up to women to teach other women how to be discreet and chaste (Titus 2:5).
But so many women can’t muster much passion about this issue. It conflicts with other values, or it just isn’t on the radar screen. So, in honor of awesome guys everywhere, I would like to present my Top Ten Reasons Why Modesty Gets a Yawn in hopes that all of us ladies can wake up, start being “teachers of good things” and consider how to provoke other women to love their brothers by making the gathering of the saints a safer place for battle-weary soldiers of purity.
10. I’m too old to be a problem.
You’re never too old to be discreet and chaste. Just because you don’t look like a teenager doesn’t mean that you don’t still need to be careful. When you’re bending over in tight jeans, your crow’s feet don’t show anyway. And if your cleavage is spilling out of your neckline, it’s likely to be a challenge whether or not you have a few gray hairs.
Even if, for the sake of argument, you really ARE too old to ever cause anyone to struggle, you’re still not too old to set an example for the younger women who are naively exhibiting themselves. After all, if their mothers and grandmothers are doing it, why shouldn’t they?
9. I don’t have a body like a Victoria’s Secret model, so who would ever lust after me?
This one is similar to #10 and reveals a way in which most women don’t understand men. Women think that they have to have a perfect total package to provoke anyone to lust. Actually a man will feel a twinge of arousal from seeing ANYthing that is hyper-accentuated and immodest about a female body even if something else is less than perfect.
8. But my husband wants me to dress immodestly.
Usually, when husbands express this, it’s because one of two things is happening (sometimes both at the same time). Either you are not paying attention to satisfying his deep desire for visual stimuli when you are alone. (And wives, when you’re alone, go ALL OUT!) Or he’s a lust junkie who’s getting a buzz anywhere and everywhere he can and is annoyed that he isn’t getting the same buzz from you. A man that is fighting hard will not want you to be as inconsiderate and unloving as all the women he has to put up with all day. But a man who’s wallowing in other women’s immodesty will want to pull you down into the pit with him with absolutely no regard for how many men you cause to stumble along the way. If your husband doesn’t care if other men are lusting after you, it is a HUGE red flag that he is probably lusting after everyone else.
7. Are you saying that if a man is lusting after a woman, that it’s HER fault?!
Nope. Not even close. Lust is a sin. And if a man is committing it, God holds him and him alone accountable. I’m not advocating the Islamic stereotype “blame the woman for her own rape” kind of mentality that says that men are not responsible for themselves in the presence of a beautiful woman.
But we CAN help our brothers. Being immodest is like throwing a party for a bunch of recovering alcoholics and deciding to have an open bar. If your guests got totally smashed it would, of course, be their fault, but no one is going to think for a minute that you really loved them or cared about their struggles.
6. But my husband never has any trouble at all with immodest women.
Apparently, there really are a few men out there who are totally oblivious. I don’t personally know any of them, but I’ve gotten enough comments from wives insisting that their husbands are in this category that I’m willing to acknowledge the possibility. However, just like I am taking your word for it that your husband has no difficulty, you might want to consider taking my word for it that a lot of other men do.
5. If Christians look like freaks no one will want to be a Christian.
People who don’t want to be Christians don’t want to because the Gospel sounds outlandish, or because they firmly believe something else, or even sometimes because they they don’t understand their own sinfulness and what they need to be saved from. That “Christians are too weird” is just an excuse, as evidenced by the “Christians are no different from anyone else” excuse that we hear equally often. God frequently asks His people to do things that make us look weird (turning the other cheek, not lying, esteeming others as better than ourselves, for example). We need to be concerned with what’s right, not what’s normal.
4. But I want to dress like my friends.
Sure, but somebody has to be a leader. Imagine how much easier it would be for your friends to be considerate in their dress if you were already doing it.
3. I want to look cute and stylish.
This is a hard one. Probably every woman really wants to have everyone think she’s beautiful, but at what cost? Is following fashion so important that it’s worth placing a stumbling block in your brother’s path? When we decide that our own sense of style matters more than helping men avoid lust, fundamentally, it is just selfishness on our part.
2. Guys won’t pay attention to me if I’m dressed in a sack.
Yeah, a lot of them probably won’t. But you have to ask yourself what kind of attention you really want. Are you looking for a godly husband or a long trail of panting, drooling puppies who will abandon you in a heartbeat just as soon as another piece of meat strolls by? Quality men want virtuous women. The problem is that the world is mostly populated by non-quality men, so virtuous women necessarily get less attention. This isn’t really a problem when you consider that drooling puppies make lousy husbands (assuming they ever quit playing video games long enough get around to marrying you). You’re wasting your time if you’re trying to appeal to them.
1. But I don’t see any men lusting after me!
Ha! Yes, there are a few creepy guys out there who ogle women openly, but 99.9% of the men out there are much more subtle. They know that it’s socially unacceptable to stare, so they don’t. In fact, most men will not look at your body when you are looking at them. If your attention is on them, they’ll look at your face, nod politely, play the gentlemen. But turn around to talk to your friends, and they’re watching you out of the corners of their eyes, and it is NOT your face they’re looking at this time. You have NO idea how many surreptitious second (and third and fourth…) looks are being stolen. You also have NO idea how many of your brothers in Christ are fighting hard not to take those second looks and are feeling really beaten up by how aware they are of your body.
Our brothers’ fight deserves much more than a yawn. Be modest yourself. Share the truth with your sisters. Let’s wake up and help each other out.
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works –Hebrews 10:24
December 9th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Oh, thanks for posting this. It’s just the kick in the pants that I needed!
December 9th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
I first want to say how pleased I am having found your blog! I love it!!! Thank you so much for being that Titus 2 woman. I am one of those younger women who still have ALOT to learn and lets just say that women of virtue are hard to find let alone learn from… Ok.. on to the point…
I wanted to enhance the last point… “You also have NO idea how many of your brothers in Christ are fighting hard not to take those second looks and are feeling really beaten up by how aware they are of your body.”
I am a woman (not NEARLY as visually stimulated as a man) and I am satisfied by my husband, and I am rarely attracted visually to anyone… I guess I have just stopped looking, BUT I have a VERY hard time spending time with some of our friends who’s husbands I find attractive. I am always very careful to not be alone with them, and I talk to my husband about it.
But here is my point: If I (who is not prone to weakness in this area) have difficulty spending time with those who are “worthy of lust” then how much more do our brothers in Christ have difficulty? I know that I DREAD pool parties with these friends because I know that they will be “on display” but we ladies are on display day in and day out.
I am with you! We need to help our brothers by protecting our purity!
December 9th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
O.K. need help here. The elders of my church asked me to do a Bible study with the rebellious young girls in the church. One asked me if there was something I can do about the clothing one of them was wearing. (Now, I had no idea what the gal was wearing, so I asked my husband..) Did she look immodest? or what? He said she just looked dumb. Well, is there a law against looking dumb? Or were they not wanting to admit that it was lustful for them?
And are these young men into porn (still)? Is this something that happens when they are not into porn? If I am going to work with the young women of the local church, I would like the men of the church to get a “what for” for being into porn or whatever it is that is making this such an issue. Do you know what I mean?
I’m thinking that I’m not exactly the “girl for the job” of teaching these young women modesty since.. I’m not even sure what they would consider modest. Should I just come out and ask them? And I’m clueless and well… “giving it a yawn”–please forgive me, sister. I know you have been trying to convert me for so long. I just need prayer.
And what is a crow’s feet? Does it have something to do with cleavage? Yes, I am in the slow lane.
December 9th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Thank you for this article. It flows nicely with a conversation I’ve had with my husband. He’s working to fight for purity, but hates that the times he has to be MOST on his guard are at church. The many pre-teen and teenage girls attending are so uncareful with their clothing. It affects his ability to worship.
I appreciate your taking a stand on this issue and desperately pray that other Christian women take a serious look at what they — and their daughters — wear. May I link to you? I had wanted to write a post about this myself, but you’ve already done so so beautifully!
December 9th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Hi, I wrote you a few months ago to thank you for your wonderful encouragement with headcovering. Just to return the favor, I want to mention an organization that has been wonderful for my teenage daughter. Its called Pure Fashion. You can see it at http://www.purefashion.com. Hope you like it.
Susan
December 9th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Now, if only our churches would preach this. If only the older women in the church would actually do, and explain this. But, as with so many other things, everyone there is just “normal”, and issues like this never come up, because no one thinks about them – or, as you’ve pointed out, they don’t want to be weird. Bring on weird – I would love it.
December 9th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Ha! I use the “I’m not attractive so who cares” excuse all the time! But then I’ll flip the excuse back on myself and say “That’s right- if nobody cares, why don’t you just do what’s right?”
The hardest thing about dressing modestly is wondering if it really does matter. If it is true that guys battle lust, they hide it so well I have a hard time believing it’s there. Like, what about short shorts? Above mid-thigh? Nearly every girl in my church (and some of the women, too) wear these at some point in the summer, and some girls wear them regularly. It seems like it bothers me more than it does the guys.
Thanks for the encouragement! This topic is sometimes very frusterating to me.
~Anna
December 10th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Great post, and excellent arguments, but why did you feel the need to include the Islamic dig? That sentence didn’t even need the word Islamic in it to ring true for many women.
December 10th, 2009 at 12:47 am
Organizing Mommy,
If your elders really are wanting you to help girls in your church with modesty, I highly recommend the little book, Secret Keeper by Dannah Gresh. It’s only around 70 pages, geared toward teen girls, but it really lays things out very well, explaining what modesty is and why it’s important.
For sure teachings to the girls on modesty need to be coupled with teachings to the guys on purity. Although, it is important to note that men feel aroused whenever they are made aware of a woman’s body. They don’t have to be into porn to struggle with lust. Porn makes it worse, but it is definitely not the source of the struggle. The source is God’s design of the male body. And that design is actually a good thing. I think in large part that we have that natural response to femininity to thank for the continuation of our species.
Oh, and “crow’s feet” are just the little lines we get around our eyes after spending many years smiling.
December 10th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Jenny P.,
I would be honored if you linked to me. Thanks for the encouragement!
December 11th, 2009 at 2:28 am
Enjoyed the list format! Somehow my brain always works better with those.
My struggle with the issue of modesty is that I feel as though I agree with you completely about the importance of modesty, that women shouldn’t wear suggestive clothing, and that we should be sensitive to other people’s struggles to keep a pure thought life…. and yet I get the feeling when I read posts on modesty that my definition of “appropriate” is different from what’s actually being meant….
Ultimately, I end up puzzled over where the line is between “not causing your brother to stumble” and not feeding into the notion that men “can’t help themselves” or are somehow not responsible for their own issues.
To me, it’s a little bit like the year or two I spent as a teenager whining over a Christian coworker (male) who was SO NICE to me but never asked me out. I felt defrauded by the basic fact that he was a kind person! Now, years later, I look back on that and realize he never did anything wrong. It was my own selfishness that wanted what wasn’t mine to have! The solution wasn’t that he needed to become mean and surly around me—it was that I needed to control my heart.
There’s nothing wrong with having a womanly body, and I’m not sure there’s anything especially useful in pretending that we don’t have curves. I’ve certainly made mistakes in my clothing choices before and can think of several outfits I trashed after different people made (polite) comments about them. But, short of trying to be sensitive and making adjustments when parents/spouses/friends give honest feedback, I’m not sure I completely buy the idea that we should think of men (and encourage them to think of themselves) as “recovering alcoholics” of flesh. Perhaps we also need to evaluate why we’re raising boys to think of girls as slabs of beef.
In short, I agree with you wholeheartedly about the six inch mini skirts, the tiny-tight shirts, the inch of cleavage, the low-slung jeans (didn’t really want to know what color your underwear is)… but I get the feeling that’s maybe not really what you’re talking about? At the moment, I simply try to stay within the boundaries of what my own conscience and my husband’s opinion deem modest.
Good thoughts, though!
December 11th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
I just wanted to thank you, Mrs. Parunak. I am a young, Christian man struggling to remain pure. I cannot tell my sisters in Christ to dress themselves properly, I rely on the older women to. Thank you.
December 11th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
the god has wandered several inches south…. brilliant, just brilliant.
December 11th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
for more specifics of why this is such a problem from the men’s point of view:
http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/
I recommend this reading to anyone with questions about WHAT and WHY.
December 11th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Kathy,
Actually, I think that guy who was being “SO NICE” was probably being SO INCONSIDERATE. Of course he shouldn’t have been surly and mean, but there’s a big difference between politely cordial and “so nice.” And if this were a blog aimed at men rather than women, I’d probably be writing blog posts about how men have no idea what they’re doing to women when they are overly friendly, looking deep into our eyes, smiling, hanging on our every word. It’s just as unhelpful to women trying to guard their hearts as immodesty is to men trying to guard theirs.
And I totally agree with you that men should be taught that women are not pieces of meat. The problem is that a high regard for women does not solve the problem because it’s cerebral. It’s important, crucial even, but it does not stop the normal physiological response of the male body to the sight of a sexually enticing female body. Once men are already feeling that hint of arousal, then their view of women will affect what they do with their feeling, whether they discipline themselves to look away and try to let the feeling go, or whether they indulge it, cultivate it and take it home with them. Saying no to themselves is possible, but it’s really rough. That’s why I brought up the alcoholics analogy. Men have a drive to look at women the way alcoholics have a drive to drink. One problem with the analogy, or course, is that alcoholism is a bad thing, a dysfunction, and as I said to O.M. above, the way the male body works is actually a good thing. It keeps the human race alive on the earth. I’d just like to see women acknowledging that the biology is there.
As far as what I mean by “immodest,” that is slightly context driven. When someone is particularly sensitive, it is more loving to be more careful. There are some things, like you described that are probably bad ideas in any public context. And other things that will depend more on who we’re with. Ultimately, though, you’re right, we really can’t do more than follow our consciences and the advice of our husbands.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
@gjn
Thanks for the link. What an interesting, enlightening, terrifying project… The most disheartening to me was the section on posture/movement. Apparently, it is a stumbling block to most men for women to: bend over to pick something up, run, stretch when sleepy, sit with her knees not close together, WALK, etc.
Am I the only person horrified by the implications of this?
Weird.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
@ Mrs. P.
Good thoughts. I see I should have waited to post my above comment, since now I’m just commenting all over the place. Oops.
I guess maybe we just disagree about the biology of the male brain. Or what we view as lust, maybe? Interesting stuff.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
I just recently attended a Sunday School Service for women and they were discussing the behaviors set forth in Titus 2 for women….
One of the words used was Discreet…the bullet points were 1–using good judgment with regards to what is fit, proper and righ in speech and conduct. Wise…studying the word of God…2–Giving care so as not to offend others and 3–Modest…..
So when Discreet was talked about it was applied to 3 areas: Speech, Dress, and Conduct….
Under Dress/Modesty…there was a wonderful little guideline… Is it Long enough, Loose enough and Covers enough…and Does not draw attention to one’s self….our clothes do not need to accentuate our feminine anatomy.
We don’t need to see curves, princess seams are great just buy a size that is large enough that it doesn’t cinch in tight against your torso underneath your chest accentuating that area…..
We have been searching for a new church to attend and recently we attended one where a young adult walked in with her 4″ stiletto’s and her dress arriving about 2-3″ above her knees….. well that crossed the church off of my list of favorites….not that I want my husband to have to deal with on Sunday’s…and yes, sitting at the back of the room and she was walking to the front of the church it was easy to see whose heads turned to follow her to her seat…..sigh…..
Sometimes though, going back to the comment about the lady who is to teach the young ladies at church…..it is the mom’s who need to be in the class just as much as the daughters….if they are not getting a good example at home, then it is going to be harder for them (the young ladies) to change their ways and to understand why it is so important if it is not being modeled at home.
Anyhow…..wonderful article as usual Mrs. Parunak!!!
December 14th, 2009 at 12:12 am
The fact that my almost-13-year old daughter likes to wear boyish clothes has been a godsend in the modesty department. Regrettably, her current school requires the girls to wear their uniform skirt. My daughters is just below her knee, but leaves her lower legs exposed to the winter cold, even with her thick stockings. I liked her old school in San Francisco better, because she was allowed to wear fitted trousers, just like her brothers.
When we go to the public swimming pool in the summer, she puts on a boys’ swimsuit over her girls’ suit. She loves the boyish look, and she doesn’t have to worry about anyone looking at her.
(And for the record, she is NOT a tomboy — in addition to the boyish clothes she loves frilly girly things, too — sometimes in combination. She believes that she can be just as feminine in jeans as she can in a skirt, and I am encouraging this belief, as long as the skin is covered!)
December 14th, 2009 at 2:07 am
Mrs. D: I am doing a Bible study with the young lady in question as well as her mother. (My daughter is going to be there also, since she seems more read up on these things)
I tend to agree with Kathy on these things, but I would like to know what the real issues are. Two things I would like to avoid:
1) Having me or any of the young ladies feel like they’re in a prison just because the men are not using good judgment on what they are doing/ watching etc. Men are supposed to be in leadership–not enabled by their lusts.
and
2) Forcing an outward change without the inward character being changed. I think this is how we get legalism.
Enlighten me.
December 14th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I think Kath and I are in the same boat here. I think I agree with the principle but I am pretty sure I have a different understanding about what constitutes lust and what is healthy and normal and what is considered modest. I also feel like its really important to teach both genders that sexuality isn’t something to be paranoid about or to be highlighted and obsessed over but instead to be accepted, appreciated (in a healthy way) and put in perspective as only a part of life. I think its a bit sad for women and girls to feel like they need to wear baggy clothing and look dressed but not pretty (no drawing any attention to themselves, now) because a woman looking nice is a moral ill when in mixed company. I realize that’s taking what you’re saying a bit to the extreme but the point I’m trying to make is that so often I feel like all female beauty is so sexualized that females feel the need to look ugly so that they can feel moral and that feels like going too far to me. I worry a bit that we’re socializing men in conservative Christian circles to be unable to see anything besides FLESH FLESH FLESH and then cascade into lust whenever they see an element of female beauty….and that feels sad to me.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Organizing Mommy and Mrs. D.,
I hope you don’t mind my weaseling in on your discussion, but I wanted to bring up an illustration that I think might apply. Last September, O.M., you shared a beautiful little story on your blog about the time you encouraged your daughter to share her skittles with a girl who hadn’t earned any at Bible class. (Others who are interested can read it here.
Here’s how I think this is similar:
It is absolutely right that men are in leadership, and they are responsible for what they do, and watch, and think. (And I think other men need to be coming along side them and helping them and holding them accountable.) This is just like Stephanie’s being responsible for answering her Bible questions. But the fact is that so many men are trying hard, but they just aren’t there yet. They haven’t learned to let go of the natural feelings that the sight of women’s bodies create, just like little Stephanie wasn’t quite big enough to answer the review questions without help. Your little girl had the freedom to eat all those skittles herself, but you encouraged her to give up some of her freedom and share for the sake of loving someone who had tried hard but hadn’t made it yet. You weren’t concerned that your daughter might feel like she was in a “prison” having to give up her skittles, or that she was “enabling” Stephanie not to learn her Bible lessons. You just wanted your daughter to show love to Stephanie.
That’s how I view modesty. I am giving up a little of my freedom to show love to my brothers who are trying hard, but just aren’t free from this yet. I’m not enabling their lust. Men who aren’t trying hard are impossible to help anyway. They will find ways to lust after a woman in a burqa. But if we women are willing to help, then men who are trying might just be enabled to succeed. And wouldn’t that be wonderful?
I don’t feel like I’m in a prison because loving people is the greatest freedom there is. The room gets brighter. Our interactions are better, and life is in perspective. We’re obeying the Lord’s commands:
I think you’re absolutely right to be leery of legalism. And I will freely admit that many discussions of modesty degenerate quickly into rules because it’s just way too easy to make guidelines (like “no necklines below the collarbone,” “no skirts above the knee,” etc.). We do need to be careful that we don’t go beyond what the Bible says. All it says is that we should wear “modest apparel” (1 Timothy 2:9). What that means is going to vary by culture. Personally, I think that if we develop a heart attitude of genuine love for struggling brothers and if we are truly honest with ourselves, then we know when we’re being sexy and showing our bodies off. And showing off is the opposite of modest.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Re: lust as biological/men who try SO HARD/etc
I saw a study recently about male views of sexuality, which included the statistic that—if they could get away with it—almost 50% of men would find rape exciting and acceptable.
I think we need to be careful about saying that lust or uncontrollable attraction or whatever you want to call it is a God-created fact of male biology. Nor is it fair to say that male sex drive is God’s way of making sure the species survives. Think about the women (or men) you know who are struggling with infertility! I believe there is a huge, God-created instinct for parenthood in most people, a deep desire for children that has nothing to do with sex.
I agree with you that male brains are wired differently (although, I’m having trouble finding scientific evidence of this in the direction you mean. The most recent study I could find from the Kinsey Institute found that men and women became aroused through watching explicit material in about the same amount of time (men at 11 minutes, women at 12)). I agree that our brains are different, yet I disagree about the extent to which you think this difference carries. The idea that “men are turned on by sight, women by touch” may have its roots in science, but it’s grown into purely mythic proportions now.
If almost 50% of men finds the idea of rape sexually exciting, and we do not believe that God created sex to be a violent, domineering act designed solely for male pleasure, I think we DO need to reconsider our cultural responsibility for promoting the idea that men are naturally “violent,” “super sexual,” and “unable to kick the habit without our help.” Personally, I’ve known a handful of guys who struggled with pornography. With one notable exception (a guy with a serious, decade long addiction to hardcore), most of the men with more “mild” struggles also have a visible lack of respect for women as human beings.
Men are not the victims of their biology, slobbering lust-drunks who deserve our pity. Men are responsible, adult human beings who deserve the respect of being expected to exhibit self-control, humility, and dependence on God. Should women be modest? Absolutely. But, let’s not kid ourselves. What some circles are often passing off as “male brain wiring” is more accurately called “sexual addiction.” Sex/porn addiction is a serious thing and needs to be treated seriously. What we should NOT do is drill into our girls’ heads that sex addiction is “normal male sexuality.”
My opinion, anyway!
December 15th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Kathy,
Great thoughts. You’re right. Men are NOT “victims of their biology who deserve our pity”. And they do deserve “the respect of being expected to exhibit self-control, humility, and dependence on God.”
Even so, as you note, (at least) 50% of men are not internally opposed to the idea of rape. This isn’t surprising. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?”(Jeremiah 17:9).
It would be a tragedy to place blame on women for the sin lodged in men’s hearts.
When I speak of helping our brothers, I don’t mean that we can change unregenerate hearts. But we can surely make things easier on THOSE WHO ARE SEEKING PURITY.
December 16th, 2009 at 3:52 am
Great post!!
The only thing I don’t agree with is #3.
Modesty and fashion can go together. You don’t have to look like you just walked of the set of ‘the little house on the prairy’ in order to be modest.
You can look hip and stylish and young, and be very modestly dressed at the same time.
Wear the colors that are IN, have nice shoes or boots. Don’t wear things that are outdated. If you shop smart, you can be totally stylish without spending a ton!!
I just have a really hard time with women who look like they are wearing a sack for modesty sake and make it sound like that is someway better than the women who dresses just as modest but very stylish.
December 16th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
I don’t think Mrs. P is saying men are biologically hard-wired to rape or even to commit adultery. She is saying men are biologically hard-wired to look at women’s bodies in a lustful way. I think this is undeniable. So, if you believe that just looking lustfully is in itself a sin (and the Bible does say this) then I do think women have a responsibility to help men out by dressing modestly. I myself don’t follow the practice of dressing modestly (though it happens that most of what I wear is pretty modest anyway ) because I don’t believe that looking is a sin. I know my husband will look at an attractive woman on the street or in a movie and what he will be feeling is lust, but in my opinion that is not the next step to adultery or already having committed adultery in his head. Even if he was 100% sure he would never get caught and the other woman was willing, he would never cheat, not just because he is an honorable man, but because he doesn’t want to have sex with a stranger in reality.
In my own judgement I don’t think a man is sinning when he looks at a woman lustfully. Consequently, I don’t feel any personal responsibility to dress modestly. If I did believe in the absolute authority of the Bible then I think there is no other way to interpret that verse and I would definitely agree that women should dress modestly. To do otherwise would be totally unfair to men – not just not helping, but provoking sin if at all possible even if that is not the intent.
Mrs. P – I enjoy reading your posts because even though I do not agree with your starting point at all, your logic is always impeccable and your conclusions completely reasonable given your initial premises. And there is the entertaining writing style too of course.
I hope that is OK and that it is OK with you that I occasionally comment now.
Adele
December 16th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Adele,
You are always welcome on my blog! I’m honored that you read it, and I’m delighted whenever you comment. No one ever has to agree to join in the discussion!
December 16th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Dear Organizing Mommy…I just saw your question….I don’t have a subscription and saw that someone had stopped by my blog so it made me come by….
1) Having me or any of the young ladies feel like they’re in a prison just because the men are not using good judgment on what they are doing/ watching etc. Men are supposed to be in leadership–not enabled by their lusts.
We have to be mindful of what is in our own hearts, we have to leave everyone else up to God and what He would have happen in their hearts….I don’t think that we need to refer to dressing modestly as a prison either
….there are many outfits that are available today that are fashionable, colorful if you want, pretty, and feminine…I don’t think we need to follow the latest trends of wearing tight clothes or double t-shirts…lol…I read in a magazine article one time that if you could slip an eraser under your shirt and see the bulge that that was another nifty guideline to use that the clothes would be too tight…..
Knowing that men do react a certain way, that their brains are wired a certain way, is helpful to us as women….it also comes down to watching out for our Sisters in Christ, we wouldn’t want our partners, husbands, etc. to be looking at other women, we would want their attention on us alone….so if we were to put ourselves in their shoes, we should be wanting to dress so that we are not the stumbling block for our Brothers in Christ or otherwise
….. We are commanded to love all and if we act in love for our Brothers and Sisters and do our part to not knowingly be the downfall for others, it would be better all around.
and
2) Forcing an outward change without the inward character being changed. I think this is how we get legalism.
Enlighten me.
As to the 2nd…..you cannot force the outward change if the heart is not there. That is where prayer would come in immediately, seeking the Lord for His will in their lives, remembering that we are the body of Christ and if Christ was next to us in the flesh, I think our manner of dress would be different for some of us…. the fact that Christ is with us in Spirit might help to share as well. Purity comes in mind, action and deed….as we strive to keep ourselves as pure as possible, this will flow throughout our speech, our conduct, our manner of dress, etc.
Perhaps having a visual comparison might be helpful as well…..one idea might be to flip through some fashion magazine or clothing catalogs for the latest trend in young adult clothing and find things that might not be appropriate and then find something suitable that still is fashionable and do a paste up on poster board to show the subtle differences and the pro’s and con’s as to why one would be preferable to the other…????
Sometimes people get a mental block about what modesty means and think it is an extreme of plain clothes and sack cloth….which may be fine for some.. the heart is in the right place….for others they need to see that with the fashions that are available today it is still possible to find a “look” that would be wearable without feeling like a wall-flower or non-existent if you will…..
Don’t forget about sewing ones own clothes as well… There is a greater degree of choices if we are able to sew, and encourage young ladies to learn to sew…. they won’t be left with what is offered at stores but could find the perfect outfit for themselves by making it!
I hope this is helpful somewhat….I am sorry I didn’t see your question sooner.
Blessings!
December 17th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Muriel,
Good thoughts! You’re right, we certainly don’t need to look dumpy, and it is very important that we don’t act like a Little House on the Prairie style outfit is somehow more holy than a modest modern outfit. The one place we do still need to be careful, though, is that the most pertinent aspect of being cute and stylish is that people like looking at us. And that raises the question of exactly what our motivation is. I’m not saying that we should intentionally repulse people, only that we need to examine our hearts. What impression are we trying to give and why? Are we being “adorned with good works,” or are we trying to attract people physically?
December 26th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Hello Mrs. Parunak,
Hmmm…as a male who occasionally pops by this most eloquent blog out of curiosity, I rarely comment but would just like to defend my gender against a particular charge levied in #8. I know this is a ladies site, so I won’t be offended if you don’t post it.
I’d like to suggest that there is a bit wider range of possible reasons why a man may want his wife to dress with varying degrees of immodesty in select contexts or occasions – other than his wife failing to provide such stimuli when they’re alone or him being a “lust junkie” who just goes for whatever’s available.
Even for someone accepting your premises regarding the definition of lust and the threshold of immodesty (both of which I’m inconclusive about), there are still other possibilities, including:
- A couple may have little time together, and even less that’s alone; thus, it’s sort of a matter of romantic time-efficiency (sounds like an oxymoron, I know…LOL). Some couples may simply view this as a difficult “trade-off” between two valid-but-not-absolute Christian values. Of course, this one is off the table whenever the woman isn’t *with* her husband.
- Relatedly, it can be to gradually spark & incubate passions, e.g., over dinner and a movie, in order to build anticipation/excitement for when they get home…
- A man might care to some extent about one of the other items on the list regarding his wife – such as your #3 or #4. It’s really not that much of a stretch – I’ve known couples who are mutually concerned with being trendy and fitting in with the “right circles” for various social concerns (which admittedly range from harmless to stupid).
Of course, any of these could be rebutted by the viewpoint that modesty is simply SO important that it should conclusively “trump” ANY other concerns (especially the stuff in the harmless-to-stupid continuum). But at the very least, I’d respectfully suggest that the impugning of male *motives* be reconsidered…
January 6th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
There really is a big difference between beauty and immodesty, and it’s really easy to spot being a guy. Both of them tend to illuminate the character of the individual (though not all the time).
The question to ask is, what is my outfit drawing attention to?
There are plenty of modest outfits that can either be put together or purchased now that are beautiful– that doesn’t have to be sacrificed to be modest.