The question to ask is, what is my outfit drawing attention to?

There are plenty of modest outfits that can either be put together or purchased now that are beautiful– that doesn’t have to be sacrificed to be modest.

Hmmm…as a male who occasionally pops by this most eloquent blog out of curiosity, I rarely comment but would just like to defend my gender against a particular charge levied in #8. I know this is a ladies site, so I won’t be offended if you don’t post it.

I’d like to suggest that there is a bit wider range of possible reasons why a man may want his wife to dress with varying degrees of immodesty in select contexts or occasions – other than his wife failing to provide such stimuli when they’re alone or him being a “lust junkie” who just goes for whatever’s available.

Even for someone accepting your premises regarding the definition of lust and the threshold of immodesty (both of which I’m inconclusive about), there are still other possibilities, including:

- A couple may have little time together, and even less that’s alone; thus, it’s sort of a matter of romantic time-efficiency (sounds like an oxymoron, I know…LOL). Some couples may simply view this as a difficult “trade-off” between two valid-but-not-absolute Christian values. Of course, this one is off the table whenever the woman isn’t *with* her husband.

- Relatedly, it can be to gradually spark & incubate passions, e.g., over dinner and a movie, in order to build anticipation/excitement for when they get home…

- A man might care to some extent about one of the other items on the list regarding his wife – such as your #3 or #4. It’s really not that much of a stretch – I’ve known couples who are mutually concerned with being trendy and fitting in with the “right circles” for various social concerns (which admittedly range from harmless to stupid).

Of course, any of these could be rebutted by the viewpoint that modesty is simply SO important that it should conclusively “trump” ANY other concerns (especially the stuff in the harmless-to-stupid continuum). But at the very least, I’d respectfully suggest that the impugning of male *motives* be reconsidered…

Good thoughts! You’re right, we certainly don’t need to look dumpy, and it is very important that we don’t act like a Little House on the Prairie style outfit is somehow more holy than a modest modern outfit. The one place we do still need to be careful, though, is that the most pertinent aspect of being cute and stylish is that people like looking at us. And that raises the question of exactly what our motivation is. I’m not saying that we should intentionally repulse people, only that we need to examine our hearts. What impression are we trying to give and why? Are we being “adorned with good works,” or are we trying to attract people physically?

1) Having me or any of the young ladies feel like they’re in a prison just because the men are not using good judgment on what they are doing/ watching etc. Men are supposed to be in leadership–not enabled by their lusts.

We have to be mindful of what is in our own hearts, we have to leave everyone else up to God and what He would have happen in their hearts….I don’t think that we need to refer to dressing modestly as a prison either ….there are many outfits that are available today that are fashionable, colorful if you want, pretty, and feminine…I don’t think we need to follow the latest trends of wearing tight clothes or double t-shirts…lol…I read in a magazine article one time that if you could slip an eraser under your shirt and see the bulge that that was another nifty guideline to use that the clothes would be too tight…..

Knowing that men do react a certain way, that their brains are wired a certain way, is helpful to us as women….it also comes down to watching out for our Sisters in Christ, we wouldn’t want our partners, husbands, etc. to be looking at other women, we would want their attention on us alone….so if we were to put ourselves in their shoes, we should be wanting to dress so that we are not the stumbling block for our Brothers in Christ or otherwise ….. We are commanded to love all and if we act in love for our Brothers and Sisters and do our part to not knowingly be the downfall for others, it would be better all around.

and

2) Forcing an outward change without the inward character being changed. I think this is how we get legalism.

Enlighten me.

As to the 2nd…..you cannot force the outward change if the heart is not there. That is where prayer would come in immediately, seeking the Lord for His will in their lives, remembering that we are the body of Christ and if Christ was next to us in the flesh, I think our manner of dress would be different for some of us…. the fact that Christ is with us in Spirit might help to share as well. Purity comes in mind, action and deed….as we strive to keep ourselves as pure as possible, this will flow throughout our speech, our conduct, our manner of dress, etc.

Perhaps having a visual comparison might be helpful as well…..one idea might be to flip through some fashion magazine or clothing catalogs for the latest trend in young adult clothing and find things that might not be appropriate and then find something suitable that still is fashionable and do a paste up on poster board to show the subtle differences and the pro’s and con’s as to why one would be preferable to the other…???? Sometimes people get a mental block about what modesty means and think it is an extreme of plain clothes and sack cloth….which may be fine for some.. the heart is in the right place….for others they need to see that with the fashions that are available today it is still possible to find a “look” that would be wearable without feeling like a wall-flower or non-existent if you will…..

Don’t forget about sewing ones own clothes as well… There is a greater degree of choices if we are able to sew, and encourage young ladies to learn to sew…. they won’t be left with what is offered at stores but could find the perfect outfit for themselves by making it!

I hope this is helpful somewhat….I am sorry I didn’t see your question sooner.
Blessings!

You are always welcome on my blog! I’m honored that you read it, and I’m delighted whenever you comment. No one ever has to agree to join in the discussion!

In my own judgement I don’t think a man is sinning when he looks at a woman lustfully. Consequently, I don’t feel any personal responsibility to dress modestly. If I did believe in the absolute authority of the Bible then I think there is no other way to interpret that verse and I would definitely agree that women should dress modestly. To do otherwise would be totally unfair to men – not just not helping, but provoking sin if at all possible even if that is not the intent.

Mrs. P – I enjoy reading your posts because even though I do not agree with your starting point at all, your logic is always impeccable and your conclusions completely reasonable given your initial premises. And there is the entertaining writing style too of course. I hope that is OK and that it is OK with you that I occasionally comment now.

Adele

Great thoughts. You’re right. Men are NOT “victims of their biology who deserve our pity”. And they do deserve “the respect of being expected to exhibit self-control, humility, and dependence on God.”

Even so, as you note, (at least) 50% of men are not internally opposed to the idea of rape. This isn’t surprising. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?”(Jeremiah 17:9).

It would be a tragedy to place blame on women for the sin lodged in men’s hearts.

When I speak of helping our brothers, I don’t mean that we can change unregenerate hearts. But we can surely make things easier on THOSE WHO ARE SEEKING PURITY.

I saw a study recently about male views of sexuality, which included the statistic that—if they could get away with it—almost 50% of men would find rape exciting and acceptable.

I think we need to be careful about saying that lust or uncontrollable attraction or whatever you want to call it is a God-created fact of male biology. Nor is it fair to say that male sex drive is God’s way of making sure the species survives. Think about the women (or men) you know who are struggling with infertility! I believe there is a huge, God-created instinct for parenthood in most people, a deep desire for children that has nothing to do with sex.

I agree with you that male brains are wired differently (although, I’m having trouble finding scientific evidence of this in the direction you mean. The most recent study I could find from the Kinsey Institute found that men and women became aroused through watching explicit material in about the same amount of time (men at 11 minutes, women at 12)). I agree that our brains are different, yet I disagree about the extent to which you think this difference carries. The idea that “men are turned on by sight, women by touch” may have its roots in science, but it’s grown into purely mythic proportions now.

If almost 50% of men finds the idea of rape sexually exciting, and we do not believe that God created sex to be a violent, domineering act designed solely for male pleasure, I think we DO need to reconsider our cultural responsibility for promoting the idea that men are naturally “violent,” “super sexual,” and “unable to kick the habit without our help.” Personally, I’ve known a handful of guys who struggled with pornography. With one notable exception (a guy with a serious, decade long addiction to hardcore), most of the men with more “mild” struggles also have a visible lack of respect for women as human beings.

Men are not the victims of their biology, slobbering lust-drunks who deserve our pity. Men are responsible, adult human beings who deserve the respect of being expected to exhibit self-control, humility, and dependence on God. Should women be modest? Absolutely. But, let’s not kid ourselves. What some circles are often passing off as “male brain wiring” is more accurately called “sexual addiction.” Sex/porn addiction is a serious thing and needs to be treated seriously. What we should NOT do is drill into our girls’ heads that sex addiction is “normal male sexuality.”

My opinion, anyway!

I hope you don’t mind my weaseling in on your discussion, but I wanted to bring up an illustration that I think might apply. Last September, O.M., you shared a beautiful little story on your blog about the time you encouraged your daughter to share her skittles with a girl who hadn’t earned any at Bible class. (Others who are interested can read it here.

Here’s how I think this is similar:

It is absolutely right that men are in leadership, and they are responsible for what they do, and watch, and think. (And I think other men need to be coming along side them and helping them and holding them accountable.) This is just like Stephanie’s being responsible for answering her Bible questions. But the fact is that so many men are trying hard, but they just aren’t there yet. They haven’t learned to let go of the natural feelings that the sight of women’s bodies create, just like little Stephanie wasn’t quite big enough to answer the review questions without help. Your little girl had the freedom to eat all those skittles herself, but you encouraged her to give up some of her freedom and share for the sake of loving someone who had tried hard but hadn’t made it yet. You weren’t concerned that your daughter might feel like she was in a “prison” having to give up her skittles, or that she was “enabling” Stephanie not to learn her Bible lessons. You just wanted your daughter to show love to Stephanie.

That’s how I view modesty. I am giving up a little of my freedom to show love to my brothers who are trying hard, but just aren’t free from this yet. I’m not enabling their lust. Men who aren’t trying hard are impossible to help anyway. They will find ways to lust after a woman in a burqa. But if we women are willing to help, then men who are trying might just be enabled to succeed. And wouldn’t that be wonderful?

I don’t feel like I’m in a prison because loving people is the greatest freedom there is. The room gets brighter. Our interactions are better, and life is in perspective. We’re obeying the Lord’s commands:

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. –Philippians 2:3,4

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. –Galations 5:13

I think you’re absolutely right to be leery of legalism. And I will freely admit that many discussions of modesty degenerate quickly into rules because it’s just way too easy to make guidelines (like “no necklines below the collarbone,” “no skirts above the knee,” etc.). We do need to be careful that we don’t go beyond what the Bible says. All it says is that we should wear “modest apparel” (1 Timothy 2:9). What that means is going to vary by culture. Personally, I think that if we develop a heart attitude of genuine love for struggling brothers and if we are truly honest with ourselves, then we know when we’re being sexy and showing our bodies off. And showing off is the opposite of modest.